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Tuesdays With Hildy: Consistency in Punishment... is it necessary?

Wooooo, consistency in punishment!  It pisses me off when my sister gets away with shit too!

More photos » Jeff Roberson - AP

Wooooo, consistency in punishment! It pisses me off when my sister gets away with shit too!

As a teacher, I have gotten a full blow at how necessary it is for children to be punished on an even playing field.  The second that they get wind of someone being given preferential treatment because they're a "good kid" who "never does stuff like that," the kid who just got a week of OSS for bringing weed to school gets pissed.  His intent was exactly the same as the good kid's - to break the rules and to get high.  The intent was there, the handbook says that the punishment is a one week suspension, and those rules are bent because of past record and what the administrator thinks that "intent" is.

In a school situation, this kind of stuff leads to angry parent phone calls, threats to the school board of lawsuits, and general problems for everyone involved.  The NHL, though, allows stuff like that to happen every day, and to the best of my knowledge no one's mom ever called to complain.

Unless Crosby's mom did when he was 3rd man in on the fight with Valabik, but I guess that explains how he didn't get fined for speedbagging Valabik's nuts.

Star-divide

Steve Ott is not getting his pow-wow with Colin Campbell over the knee on knee on Crombeen.  Instead, he's getting it for the hip check on Cola.

The knee on knee check is one that normally comes with a hefty fine or a suspension for repeat offenders.  A hip check, well, it's a lot easier to argue that your positioning was off or something like that.

But excuses aside, let's look at his hit on Cola versus Rob Scuderi's hit on Chimera.

Exhibit A:

 

 

Exhibit B:

 

Which looks worse?  Which play looks sketchy?  Look, I don't like the check on Carlo, but that was a legal hip check.  What Scuderi did, regardless of intent to injure, or if he has a history, or whatever - that could have broken Chimera's neck easily.  No one comes in that low to do a hip check unless there was some sort of intent to knock the other guy out.

What did Scuderi get as a punishment?  Suspension?  No.  A fine, and he's ok - he doesn't have a "history."  Ott, though, who the league has on a short leash (Avery's on the other, I'm sure), is having a good stern talking to and probably a suspension in his future.

How in the hell is this consistent? 

Ott's hit on Crombeen wasn't pleasant either - less so than the hit on Cola.

 

How that doesn't get looked at is beyond me.  Compare Ott's hit with Tuomo Ruutu's hit on Ilya Kovalchuk a couple of years ago:

 

That hit was just as bad, and if I remember correctly, Ruutu got a 3 game suspension for it.  Again, where the hell is the consistency?

One other issue with these incidents are the penalties given.  McCarthy didn't get an instigator when he went after Ruutu - he got 5 for fighting.  Crombeen goes after Ott and gets an instigator.  The scrum between the Blue Jackets and Kings resulted in a Los Angeles powerplay, because of an instigator given to Chimera. He just almost got his neck broken.  How the HELL is that instigating the fight?

That's the equivalent of punishing the kid in a fight who defends himself, because he should have done the "right thing" and sat there to take it like a wuss.  Sends a great message to that kid, and it sends a great message to the guy who is trying to stick up for himself.

Oops.  I forgot the counterpoint.  I guess that's because there really ISN'T ONE.  Awful discipline and no consistency.  As a hockey fan, I'm fairly tired of it.  Let the guys police themselves, and incidents like the ones we saw this weekend don't happen.  Simple as that.

Poll
Should a player's punishment be decided on a player by player status?
Yes. Some guys just make a goof up, and if they don't have a history of hurting people, then let an accident slide.
57 votes
No - the result is the same regardless of what the intent is, and we need some sort of consistancy so people know what to expect.
69 votes
Meh, as long as no one gets hurt, there's no biggie. Only hand out punishments when someone loses an eye.
9 votes

135 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 35 comments |

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it should be player to player

but if someone breaks a rule they should still be punished… for instance the low shot that scudari gave to whoever that was should be fined.. he has no history.. ott on the other hand should get 2 games prolly because he has history and that wasnt the only questionable incident in the game

If you have a donkey and i have a chicken and youre donkey ate my chickens feet what would you have.... 2 feet of my cock in youre ass!! haha

by bleedblue2009 on Oct 27, 2009 10:18 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i mean dont get me wrong

the nhl does suck in handing out punishments.. and there does need some sort of system to it… first step in making it better is firing colin campbell.. hes just retarded.. and i would like to see superstars suspended when they deserve it.. cuz that never happens

If you have a donkey and i have a chicken and youre donkey ate my chickens feet what would you have.... 2 feet of my cock in youre ass!! haha

by bleedblue2009 on Oct 27, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont think it should be person to person, unless your

a repeat offender. it needs to be you do this your out 1 game no pay, you do it again double the punishment each time

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Oct 27, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

basing punishment on result is always dangerous

you want to STOP people from boarding (see ruutu vs tucker) not slap someone after they take down a player. you can’t stop kneeing, boarding, elbows to the back of somone’s head by waiting for blood to hit the ice then doing something. you gut the kneeing by everytime its 5 minutes power play then back it up with suspensions and/or fines. if you don’t hurt the team AND the player, i’m not sure how you will get on top of the issue. you hurt the team and they start self policing, you hurt the player just cos its fun and they deserve it.

saying that, however, eaach incident deserve an individual look. zero tolerance may be zero tolerance, but that doesn’t mean 100% same punishment.

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 27, 2009 11:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Rumor has it that Ott has been suspended

for the hit on Cola…

At least he got something…maybe that hit wasn’t what was supposed to get the punishment but Ott’s whole game deserved something. The shit head.

Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

by BluesFanFromNE on Oct 27, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't care if it's 2 Lady Bing winners...

If one Lady Bing winner knees somebody, and another Lady Bing winner throws a elbow to the head, guess what? It’s a match penalty and a suspension. What goes for one should go for everybody…then you factor the “repeat offender” variables.

by JGB on Oct 27, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

match penalties

i’m not sure they do match penalties correctly anymore in the video age, i think the front office pretty much decides itself what to review. last season there were 3 match penalties while the year before their were 11. highest i found was 1998 (first year of records on nhl.com) with 17. as the nhl hands out suspensions on plays were no penalty was even called, i image the ref’s need to call the match version of a penalty will become less frequent

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 27, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct sir.

The intent to injure match penalty is becoming a rare critter these days.

by JGB on Oct 27, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this was the other ruutu

on tucker

and he got 3 days, the blues will not face him as a result. i guess beware the ruutu.

now did ruutu (who apologized to tucker and stuff) get three days for an idiot obvious boarding situation or did he only get 3 games cos the player he hit was dropped? half the comments on that video claim this was a clean or near clean hit. wow. do they need stop signs on players backs in the nhl level now?!?!

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 27, 2009 12:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

To show you what a dirty fuck Ott is

Watch some of his hits on Youtube. He’s very fond of waiting until the whistle blows and players are off guard and then he cranks them. He can’t fight and he can’t hit fair so I’m baffled where this tough guy label comes from.

Otter isn’t really the best nickname for him either I think, rabbit would be better since he hops away to hide after every cheap hit. Even turtle would work better since he’s quick to throw his the arms up like a shell and duck under the raining blows.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 12:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

siigh

posting to much i know but really, the ott solution is no instigator. period. period. end of ott’s current tactics the day after the rule is removed.

i really think the punishment situation should have as its objective more the stopping of tucker from being carted off the ice after the ruutu hit.

you stop nasty tactics league wide with hitting the “good” ruutu after the tucker incident, you stop the scum like ott, marchment, “bad” ruutu, tyson nash by having tony twist beat the shit out of them 3 times a game and having them in the penalty box for 25 minutes.

it should be noted that in all these cases the code outweighs the instigator anyway. cheap & dirty OR clean and unfortunatly dangerous does not matter, a teammate must step up and pummel someone after something like that. this just gives the ref’s another tool to mishandle (the instigator). when ruutu boarded tucker he was a marked man. how the instigator going to stop it?

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 27, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking as a Stars fan...

I appreciate talking to Blues fans about what happened. Obviously, we’re going to be taking our own sides on it, but most everyone will agree that Ott’s job is to agitate, and that he will step over the line from time to time.

Unfortunately, I don’t have any respect for you whatsoever, spectr. Coming to the DBD blog to cuss out the Stars fans is not the right way to go about it. Try being civil for a change. Classless.

Ott did seem to have some “Avery” type moments during that game, and he needs to remember to agitate, not infuriate. I think after the suspension, he’ll get himself under control and watch how he’s doing his hitting. It’ll be interesting to see in person, since I have tickets to the Stars vs. Blues game in November.

For the rest of the Blues fans, the ones who don’t want to cuss me out because I cheer for a team besides the Blues, (except for Redwings fans… I think we have some middle ground there!) Has there always been a negative perception about Ott like this, or is it mainly because of the other night? And would you guys be able to respect him as an agitator and player if he were able to pull it back a bit?

by Tsudbury on Oct 27, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tsudbury

You need to get your facts straight. I didn’t cuss anyone out on DBD. When one of your members responded to what was a civil discussion by calling me “old man” I fired back with “loudmouth” and “punk”. How you get cussing someone out from that is beyond me. Your moderator then asked that the name calling wasn’t needed and there was no more.

Before you come here again and try and twist my posts please do me the favor of at least quoting me correctly.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Tsudbury

since you’re the self appointed class monitor you can show some and post your apology here.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure thing

Once you apologize for being so offensive on DBD.

I’m no class monitor, I’m just not sure why you needed to go to DBD to go on your rants. I was here to ask an honest question to other Blues fans.

by Tsudbury on Oct 27, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was here to ask an honest question to other Blues fans.

And you also falsely claimed I cursed someone out on DBD and posted some “rants”. That never happened slick, nice try, I would have been banned. We had a civil discussion going on about the Cola hit and I responded to one of YOUR board members calling names and that was it. Your mod stepped in and it was over. Speaking of rude behavior, are you also calling out your DBD pal for his rude post that incited my reply or are you just here to annoy us Blues fans with your petty rants?

Take your whiny posts somewhere else Ott homer, you have no credibility here anymore.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i want to weigh in here

with saying nice eff off dallas fan and showing your classlessness by coming onto a Blues site to go off on your tangent here…as much as your welcome to lurk and post sometimes i do think you are way out of line to call out blues fans on their fansite, and not call out your own from the convo spectr is talking about…

YOU SIR ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!!

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Oct 27, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh so...

we cant come to your board and talk shit but you guys are free to come over here and do it… how the fuck does that make sense

If you have a donkey and i have a chicken and youre donkey ate my chickens feet what would you have.... 2 feet of my cock in youre ass!! haha

by bleedblue2009 on Oct 27, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Geez, calm down

Destroyer, you make a good point. Probably should have done that on the other site, so I’m sorry for that.

I’m not trying to talk any crap with anyone. I really am trying to see how everyone else feels about Ott. Not just after the incident, since everyone on the Blues side is ticked at him, but before as well.

I’m just trying to get a look at all sides of the argument is all.

by Tsudbury on Oct 27, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there is only one side

Ott is a piece of shit coward, who needs to take a puck, fist, and skate to the face and disappear

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Oct 27, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair...

No, spectr didn’t cuss anyone out over at DBD, least of all, me.

My quip about him probably wasn’t called for.

It’s all water under the bridge as far as I’m concerned. Ott got his two games. But like most Dallas fans, I thought the suspension was more deserved because of his knee on knee hit on Crombeen.

I also thought the instigator that Crombeen got was total bullshit, but that’s an entirely other discussion.

by Brandon Bibb on Oct 27, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay, since everyone is hugging and making up

My comment toward Brandon was out of line, I apologize. No hard feelings here.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 28, 2009 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's an excellent question.

My opinion of players like Ott and others of his ilk (Ruutu 1 and Ruutu 2, Orr, Avery, Cooke, and a few others) are that they do serve a valid purpose as agitator. They’re supposed to throw the other team off their game, and they usually do it well.

It’s when the agitators overstep what their boundaries are – that’s when it bothers me. Ott could have annoyed the bejeebus out of the Blues Saturday night without trying to take out 2 players. Avery, now that he’s under Torts in NY, has become a pretty good model for Ott to follow. He’s dropped the whole “bad boy/moderate retard” act and has just started annoying the holy hell out of people appropriately. He’s focusing on the play and helping his team.

Guys like the two Ruutus are probably the ones folks need to be the most concerned about, because they tend to not contribute to the scoresheet and are just asshats. Cooke’s probably the least controversial out of the agitators, but he has a mean streak in him that seems to be pretty under control.

Reporter: There`s a "stamp out the Beatles movement" underway in Detroit. What are you going to do about it?

Paul McCartney: We`re going to start a campaign to stamp out Detroit.

by hildymac on Oct 27, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can agitate without the dirty hits

Esa Tikkanon comes to mind. There are plenty of ways to get under someone’s skin without trying to maim them and end their career. Ref Slapshot and the goalie scene.

One game out here in the Pacific League I couldn’t get this one guy to drop the gloves or take a penalty. I tried everything I knew to get him going since he was killing us on the scoreboard. Finally in a scrum in the corner we were bunched up in a wad and I reached over and kissed him on the cheek. The SOB went ape shit and drew several penalties. The ref never saw it but my D partner did and he just laughed his azz off.

There’s always a to skin a cat as gramps used to say.

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree.

You can be a complete and total hindrance to me performing my job and do it well without you beating the hell out of me.

Ask some of my kids.

Reporter: There`s a "stamp out the Beatles movement" underway in Detroit. What are you going to do about it?

Paul McCartney: We`re going to start a campaign to stamp out Detroit.

by hildymac on Oct 27, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Call me crazy but.....

To me hockey is more mental than physical. Hear me out now before you go wondering if my cheese has slid completely off my cracker.

All the players are in top shape and can do the ice ballet but it’s when you break a guy’s will to go back into the corner to muck or you get inside his head so bad he’s looking for you and not that pass that you’ve won the game already. A total mind over matter like in the service in the SF. Those guys all have to pass an entry fitness program to even just show up, it’s the mental shit they throw at them that breaks them down to those they want to keep. Same for hockey. The guys who take their team to the cup are those that just won’t quit no matter how badly hurt they are.

Bracing myself now for the tomato throwers

Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints

by spectr17 on Oct 27, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not tossing anything here.

It’s marketed as a physical sport, but there is a lot of thought involved. It might not be the meandering, philosophical thought of baseball, but that doesn’t lessen the impact of thought and strategy that is involved.

Reporter: There`s a "stamp out the Beatles movement" underway in Detroit. What are you going to do about it?

Paul McCartney: We`re going to start a campaign to stamp out Detroit.

by hildymac on Oct 27, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You call them "Avery" moments

yet now that he’s not on your team he’s not playing dirty anymore. How many suspensions has he gotten lately? You need to ride Ott just like the Rangers are riding Avery. Play clean or your out.

by Maverides on Oct 27, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to think the Stars helped a bit...

with Avery. The Stars were the ones to suspend him before the NHL officially did. And I’m sure him going to anger management had something to do with helping his temper. Even though I’m not at all a Rangers fan, it’s definitely nice to see that Avery is playing better, and is overall a better person right now….even if he’s not on the Stars team anymore.

by Tsudbury on Oct 27, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anger management, what a bunch of BS. I think he has reformed because the Stars cut him, so he knows this is his last shot. Being over the line is only hurting himself and his team. He likes playing, he likes getting paid, so he’s been good

by Bman21212 on Oct 28, 2009 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep - suspension.

He wound up with 2 games for the hit on Cola, nothing for the knee-on-knee.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Hip-Checks-Ott-gets-2-game-suspension-Scuderi-?urn=nhl,198499

Wysh does a pretty good job of explaining why this hit v.s Scuderi’s is a joke, but I think I pretty much said the same thing above.

Reporter: There`s a "stamp out the Beatles movement" underway in Detroit. What are you going to do about it?

Paul McCartney: We`re going to start a campaign to stamp out Detroit.

by hildymac on Oct 27, 2009 1:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The rules are the rules.

When it comes time to review a play in the league office, the league should ignore the name on the back of the jersey and judge the incident on its own merits. Doesn’t matter whether the guilty party is Steve Ott or Sidney Crosby; if it’s a dirty hit, there should be consequences. The outcome of the hit (other player is fine, other player left the ice on a stretcher) really shouldn’t matter. It’s the intent to injure that should be judged, not how successful the attempt was.

I do think that repeat offenders should receive stiffer punishments than first-timers. Accidents happen, and the first-timers will accept the correction and move on. But the repeaters, the guys who don’t seem to care much about the rules, that’s where the big suspensions and fines should go.

No wonder the referees on the ice feel no need to be more impartial in their calls; the league office that oversees them is every bit as capricious and arbitrary in its own disciplinary proceedings. Get some consistency at the league level, and I bet we’ll start to see some more consistency on the ice, too.

by BleedBlue42 on Oct 27, 2009 2:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ott is a cheap player. A coward. Has been his whole career, and is the only reason he’s had a career.

by MMouse on Oct 27, 2009 3:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you go for the knees

Then you are no doubt trying to hurt someone, If its a big hit and its not dirty then as a result there is injury, I think no fine or suspsnsion should happen, but if theres an elbow or blatant irrefutable intent to injure, kind of like these besides Ott’s knee, which was more of neglect to move compare to the other hits when players moved into position for a large hit and target below the hip.

I think they should be treated like guys in prison who are there for reasons other than violent or non-drug reasons, the bottom bitch.

Jaarko Ruutu is already a hated player, as was Darcy Tucker for a while but he has calmed down, even known vicious at times enforcers rarely take such blatant disregard. Steve Ott is repugnant, I think unspeakable things about him, at least here.

"I quit because I didn't feel like the Detroit Lions had a chance to win. It just killed my enjoyment of the game."
-Barry Sanders
(Soon to be the Detroit RedWings - Henrik Zetterberg '11)

by DasBlues74 on Oct 27, 2009 11:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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