An Objective Look At Walt's Play This Season

by Dave0585 on Nov 20, 2009 11:51 AM CST Comment 35 comments

Well I tried to call out Tkachuk for his play recently in the game thread and got shit and pissed on for it. It could have been the way I attempted to vent my anger, so I will try to make a better argument in hopes of people being able to objectively look at his play and not just think I was trying to get back at Walt for fucking my woman in the sandhole…or something.

I played hockey for 15 years, have been watching the Blues all my life. I say this because I would like to think I know a little bit about the game and I am not a frosted tip douche bag like those we love to have on the STLtoday boards. So don’t start with the hate yet.

I will start off with what I would call logical arguments for Walt not playing well. What is his skill set right now? He is not a playmaker, a goal scorer, a face-off specialist, or good on the stopper line. Does anyone have confidence in him to turn an odd man rush, or any kind of rush, into a scoring opportunity when he is carrying the puck into the zone? Not me. Or what about the energy or skill set to take over 2 minutes of a game when we are tied or down by 1 and need to win. I don’t think he can do that anymore. He can’t pass all that well, obviously can’t handle a pass, and in the game against the Sharks (I think) he fell down at least 5 times either b/c he couldn’t skate or was pushed off the puck with minimal effort. At best, he can win some battles on the board and stand in front of the net to get garbage goals (I don’t mean to take away from the value of those goals…its just that I don’t think it takes any special kind of player to be able to do that. I think you should be able to stick most any of your players on your NHL team in front of the net and expect them to get the job done). I know Murray’s style of play emphasizes dumping the puck in and gaining control (something Walt should presumably still be able to do) but if that was the case, wouldn’t he have more assists or at least be at a fairly respectful +/- (as of the time I am writing this after his goal in the first period, he is at a -1 for the year). Basically, if you put Walt in a different jersey without his name or 7 on the back of it, I’m pretty sure we would all think his ability to help this team on the ice is quite minimal.

Now for some numbers. Since October 10 in our 2-1 loss against LA (15 games not including last night) he has 4 pts (all assists). He has 17 SOG and that includes a stretch of four games where he registered 0 SOG. He has not scored (before last night) since October 8 against ATL. Now yes, the whole team has been playing poorly of late, and I’m not trying to single out Tkachuk at all. However, his skill set and style of play makes him one of the most, if not the most, expendable player on the team (or at least the most expendable forward on the team). Crombeen, McClement and Steen are a great stopper unit and have a solid place on the team. Boyes, Backes, Oshie, Perron, McDonald, all have enough skill to call what they are going through a “scoring slump”. Karyia has skill too, but he may be getting to old and I’m not willing to attack or defend him right now. Janssen will always have a place on this team. Tkachuk and Winchester seem to be the odd players out. Winchester had a nice year last year where one could think he may be an ascending player, but he sure doesn’t have the history or pedigree to warrant any kind of slack and thinking he will be a good-solid player. That just leaves Big Walt (along with Berglund who is an enigma. I don’t wanna go near there). Again, I am only talking about on the ice contributions here. For a team that is struggling so much on the power play and to score goals, I don’t see where to give someone like Walt a significant amount of ice time or even put him on a prime line. Even with his limited role, his play seems so bad that he makes the best of not helping the team even though he has a limited role. Basically, if everyone is playing shitty, something has gotta give. And that something, to me, seems to be Tkachuk. He is a cool dude and great leader, but this team needs on ice skill right now. Make him a coach if you want him around this team. Again, I know this team has a lot of problems right now. As a team, we take too many low percentage shots and don’t open up any kind of a shooting lane. Our defensive core as a whole is no where near dynamic enough. But for the most part, this is the same team as last year. As well as we played in the 2nd half last year, we played just as poorly in the first half. You can make just as good an argument saying that we would be a bad team this year based on our first half as you could thinking we would be good this year because of our 2nd half.

If you disagree, OK…what does Walt bring to this team while he is on the ice? What does he bring on the ice that no other, or few other players on this team couldn’t bring? I think his skill set is average at best and replaceable at worst. And I know he scored last night, but anyone who saw that goal should not be impressed with it at all. The initial shot was incredibly pathetic and he pretty much ran into the goalie to put the puck in the net.

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Sigh

I read it, thought about it, and came to this conclusion….youre gonna have trouble fitting in here

Look I'm sure youre a nice person and everything but that Redwings jersey you're wearing makes me want to cave your face in with my fist...it's not you it's me and the fact that you're a fucking Redwings fan

by RFJCC on Nov 20, 2009 12:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

While I did read your post, and I suppose I can see your opinion on this, I will simply respond with:

I’m just not going to go here…

I like Walt & even though he’s older and not the highest producer, he brings true grit & leadership to the team. Thats JMO.

Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

by BluesFanFromNE on Nov 20, 2009 12:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Weelllllll

Do we want to have our sentimental relationship with Tkachuk and feel good about it, or have a winning team? I tried to stress how much I wanted to talk about his on ice play. I will definitely say he brings leadership and experience to the team. And, I would NEVER say the best thing he has done for the Blues was when we traded him to ATL for a 1st rounder. I’m not a Tkachuk basher at all. He has been a great Blue and deserves respect for coming back to the Blues after we traded him away. 100% stand up dude. However, if this team has such high expectations and wants to win now, we don’t have room for marginal and replaceable talent to consistently take up significant chunks of ice time. I’m a Blues fan. I want the team and organization to win. In doing so, I will not irrationally hold allegiances to great players from the past who may be incapable of contributing specific skills that will help the TEAM succeed. Want do you want more; the team to make a deep playoff run or be able to feel good inside because you didn’t let go of an aging player who couldn’t contribute anymore? I’m not saying the two are mutually exclusive, but I think the probabilities of a playoff run increase when Tkachuk’s ice time will decrease. Again, are you a Blues fan or a Keith Tkachuk fan?? Just because a reality may be harsh, it doesn’t make it any less true.

by Dave0585 on Nov 20, 2009 1:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

thank you for pointing out problems

go find a solution

by RFJCC on Nov 20, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To this statement I give you a gigantic WTF?!

I didn’t bash your post, I said I saw your opinion and I was respectful

and THIS is what I get?

I now repeat my statement from the GDT last night and say “you’re a fucking kill joy. Get lost from the site, we don’t welcome your kind here. Those of us who are true Blues fans will stick with em through whatever”

/DONE

Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

by BluesFanFromNE on Nov 20, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if walt

were making 5 million to stay, or taking the spot of a healty scratch who deserved to play, i’d start to care, but he ain’t doing neither.

if nothing is pushing walt (and the only other walt we got on this team is backes and compare those two power forwards side by side this season) nothing is going to haooen, hey when being pushed kt don’t always move

we know we need leadership on this team, and not being in the room, the only on-ice and media driven leadership i consistantly see is kt and jackman. so we dumping kt, putting more on the underplaying backes, and then telling paul kariya to become a leader of men.

oh and getting another forward. fir 2 mil or less who can win faceoffs, be on power play and pk when pressed

on the OTHER hand do i think this team holds on too tight to relationshios still?

yep
yep
yep
yep

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Nov 20, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wtf?

This board is seriously starting to sound like the stltoday boards with some of these fanposts, too many bandwagoners threatening to jump ship after a slow start…shame shame

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 20, 2009 7:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

i like walt

and pointed out that nothing is behind walt to even worry about him no matter what he is doing, mo one else can cover his job. etc so why that directed at me? geez get off my fucking back.

and yea im not sure how anyone can serously think the blues dont hang onto some of their vets too long. i mean really. how can you not? anyone? if that is your issue start rooting for the red wings and get out of here

if its the leadership questing, dont read anything anywhere, hell people here starting to want “c” yanking. bitch after their posts cos that is insane. how the fuck is yanking someones c a plus?

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Nov 20, 2009 8:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it was just a reply to the thread

not directed really at anyone other the the original post

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 21, 2009 6:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and

they want to yank brewers C because hes been out for so long and it almost looks like hes messed with the chemistry of the team

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 21, 2009 6:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So you would have had MacInnis retire in a different sweater???

However, if this team has such high expectations and wants to win now, we don’t have room for marginal and replaceable talent to consistently take up significant chunks of ice time. I’m a Blues fan. I want the team and organization to win. In doing so, I will not irrationally hold allegiances to great players from the past who may be incapable of contributing specific skills that will help the TEAM succeed.

I’d like to hear you say that. MacInnis is and always will be one of the greatest on the ice, but he wasn’t the same after his eye injury…I suppose you would have wanted him traded since he wasn’t producing like before so we could make room for a “better” player?

If you’re not exactly sure why you’re not making friends around here, and you like to look at things using logic, try this as a starting point…

It’s not blind loyalty to a player of the past that causes us to stand up for Walt. It’s the fact that he’s been here through the toughest times we’ve had, and decided to KEEP COMING BACK. Because he believes in the guys he skates with, and he believes that with THEIR help, he can get a chance to raise the Holy Grail. You want to talk about what happens when a young team loses Grandpa? Think back to the season that Dougie Weight got traded (the 1st time). The kids out there were so lost, we went on a double-digit losing streak (can’t remember the exact number). The game that broke them out of it? When Dougie paid a visit to our locker room a on trip through St. Louis as a Hurricane, and left a personal message to the young guys in the locker room.

If you know so much about hockey, you’d know that this isn’t football or especially the god-awful NBA where an individual’s talent is all there is to throwing into the mix for success. Talent is needed, no doubt, but hockey has this important thing that affects the game like no other sport: Chemistry. You don’t have it, you don’t get anywhere. You want to know what Tkachuk brings to the team. I just told you.

by k10patel on Nov 21, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

this needs to be rec'd 1000 times

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 22, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Didnt mean to attack you and I dont think I did

But I think I’m noticing a trend from the responses to my opinions. It seems that in order to be a respected fan around here you have to act like a sheep as if the fans are the congregation of some church and the Blues are the Vatican and are infallible and can do no wrong. Good fans root for their teams through good times and bad times. When the times are bad, they want the team to make moves to make the team good. In order to make a bad team good, critical analysis is a must. A better fan holds the team accountable and roots for them as an organization, not holding personal biases or feelings toward specific players above the number one goal of the team: WINNING. I’m just not a fan, ever, when proponents of any team, company, or idea are blindly following along. You don’t welcome my "kind" here…sorry for looking for every opportunity to make the team better so for the first time in history the Stanley Cup can have a home in St. Louis. Boy, I sure am a fucker…
I think what I am advocating for, or my solution, is pretty clear. There are some players who have the skill and up-side that deserve opportunities to ride out this problem: Boyes, Backes, McDonald, Perron, Oshie, Crombeen, McClement, Steen, Janssen. All of these players have strong roles on this team. Even Karyia still has some potential to offer. Berglund has something going on, and I’m not sure how to make him consistenly move his feet and be interested (or pretend to be) in the outcome of the game. Tkachuk will never be cut, and I doubt offers any trade value. So it would be irrational for me to promote that. He needs a very diminished role though, and probably should end up on the healthy scratch list quite a bit throughout the season. Keep him fresher for when he is on the ice. I guess I am backing myself into a corner hear and my only option is Lars Eller. I saw him play in 2 games and given his circumstances (20 year old Rookie first time playing in North America) he was terrific. His style of play is exactly what the Blues need. He will make mistakes that make you want to send him down and may even take games off or tire out during long stretches. But over the course of the year, the more minutes someone with Eller’s skill set gets will benefit the Blues more than playing someone with Walt’s skill set. I am NOT saying Eller is the answer or “final peice” of the puzzle…but he sure makes the puzzle more complete.
There is no easy answer fix for this season and probably the best answer for most questions is to let it ride out and have a self correcting approach to it. However, there are a few spots where we can shake things up a little bit for the better, and this seems to be the most obvious spot to do that.
For instance, Karyia has a role on this team, and it is not to play on the 3rd or 4th line. His role on this team is to create scoring opportunities through goals and assists. He needs players on his line to help him do this. Playing with Crombeen and McClement (whos primary on ice duties are to shut down the other team’s top scoring line) is not going to help Karyia play to the best of his role on this team.
There is more to being a BLUES FAN than just throwing hate at Detroit and Chicago.

by Dave0585 on Nov 20, 2009 3:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Looks like Mr. Observer got a new user name.

by Washoo on Nov 20, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You beat me to it Washoo!!!

I was seriously just logging in to post exactly that.

And obviously said person above doesn’t listen too much to McClement being considered a “party starter” or in better terms, a catalyst to good plays, goals etc…which is exactly why Berglund was put on that line last night…

Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

by BluesFanFromNE on Nov 20, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Your ad hominem attacks don't do much for your argument

Fellas, I’m just trying to get a good debate going about what exactly needs to be done to make this Blues team really click. This is because how much I love this team and how much I want them to win. When the Blues finally win the cup I don’t want to be at the age where I’m a 3 beer queer and need a blue pill to get my dick hard. I’m not gonna get into a "who is the bigger fan" debate with you…that’s just about as useful as a ruler at a sausage party.
I don’t buy into the McClement line being the jump start line. I know the results; don’t regurgitate them back to me. But 2 things need to be looked at. Did the players continue their good play after they left the line? If not, then it didn’t really jump start them. Also, going back to the reason why that line exists (to shut down the other team’s top line) means that the majority of the time a skill guy like Berglund or Karyia or anyone else you move to that line may be on the ice against a line that doesn’t worry too much about defense. Either way you look at it, I still don’t agree about putting skill players on that line. If you think I’m wrong, well great! Opinions are allowed to be wrong. But ya gotta come back at me with something better (perhaps…constructive??) than thinking I’m someone who is a big enough pussy to change names b/c (I’m assuming) he was made fun of or got kicked off this site. It seems to me you are wrong about this assumption, and your fascination with #7.

by Dave0585 on Nov 20, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry, but it seems you haven't noticed...

I have NOT been trying to argue with you…and it doesn’t seem like RFJCC or washoo are either. Yet you continually post these huge responses. Its like you came here for one reason and you’re just itching to get into it and doing all you can to get someone to get all riled up in response. I’m not going to cater to your game.

But I certainly don’t like to be told I am wrong. I am NOT wrong to like someone as a player, just as you are NOT wrong to not like someone as a player. But don’t come to the boards of the team that said player is a member and bash said player repeatedly when theres more to the situation than just one player.

And btw…I am NOT a “Fella”

Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

by BluesFanFromNE on Nov 20, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i read the first paragraph

And seriously do you work in the front office are you an advisor to the team? If not stfu and dial a rejection hotline #, quit bitching every chance you get, you complained about production he scored, you complain that it was a shitty shot? I saw one hell of a move to get in close

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 20, 2009 7:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

There is more to being a BLUES FAN than just throwing hate at Detroit and Chicago.

Exactly.

There are plenty of others to hate:

-Towel Douche

-Vancouver (mostly Bieksa [sp?], Kesler, and the Sedins)

-Guys that wear a jersey for a team that isn’t there (Although I can understand a jersey for a player’s former team playing tonight)

-Any and all detractors from the Red Berenson Cowboy for President campaign.

I’ll formulate a response for defending Walt sometime between now and the next couple of days, unless someone else puts up a good response first

No beer and no TV make Homer...something something.

by Poor College Student on Nov 20, 2009 3:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

yawn.

"You suck but you know you suck. That's what I like about you." -Brett Hull

by hullnoates on Nov 20, 2009 4:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Statistically

Hes near the top of the team in goals, assists, and has the most Power Play points of which we are sorely lacking, If walt sucks, then what does that say about the rest of our team?

by Icion on Nov 20, 2009 7:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Here Here

His points would hold more weight if the numbers weren’t better than most guys on the team. And as for what he does that others don’t. He is the best at standing in front of the goalie and making his job harder.

The term "in my humble opinion", which they think adds weight to their statements rather than indicating , in reality, "these are the mean little views of someone with the social grace of duckweed"

by Maverides on Nov 20, 2009 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At best he can win some battles on the boards?

I have to say you’re wrong for a few reasons. One, Walt is a hall of famer. Yeah, he’s not the threat he was back in his prime, but we didn’t re-sign him to be. If we get 20 goals out of him thats awesome. He’s not expected to be our top scorer.

Two, you say being able to get “garbabge” goals isn’t a talent. If its not, then why aren’t there more power forwards in NHL that can do it? No one does it like he did/does. In fact if its so easy, then why aren’t you doing it?

I know you say you know so much about the game, but do you really? I’m not saying Walt is Ovechkin or anything. But you can’t seem to see any value in him beyond using him as fodder to pick arguements with people on the site here? He had mutitudes of teams trying ot sign him in the offseason, but he stuck with the Blues because he wants to retire here.

You said there is more to being a Blues fan than throwing hate at Chicago and Detroit. Yeah, there is. A large part of that is NOT throwing hate at your own team.

Barret Jackman is my hero.

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.

by BluesTiger on Nov 20, 2009 9:07 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

shit I for one

as a hockey player myself hate getting in front off the net, I am to much a loose canon to stay in there and get jacked around by a goalie or defenseman

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 21, 2009 6:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tkachuk out, Eller in?

Walt has been decent this year. He’s no longer fast (he lost the speed that made him such a dynamic player for Winnipeg before we got him), but he’s a big body, and he’s not afraid to lay out an opposing player – he’s been the guy with the biggest hits that should be momentum-shifters, and he’s gotten smarter in his old age. On the ice, he commands respect from his teammates and still from opponents. He’s not a top-line forward, not even close. He’ll need some nights off, especially when the team is playing every other night to keep those legs going over the long haul, but for what he costs the team, he still brings an ingredient to the table. There are other, much more underperforming players whose skill set Eller could replace on a nightly basis. (Bergy, Kariya, Boyes). In short, #7 is still doing his job (as defined by this team) reasonably well.

by The Goalie Guy on Nov 21, 2009 12:09 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

The worst part about Walt for me is that he is just a small fraction of what he used to be. He was the premium power forward in the league and could break through almost any defenseman and then rush the goalie. Remeber the 50 goals and 200 PIM? Now he will be lucky to get 50 points and 200 minutes of playing time.
It’s like watching a baseball player (Willie Mays with the Mets, Jordan and the Bullets/Wizards) when they simply don’t have the competitive edge to be relevant. I have no doubt that his heart still has the drive, but I think the legs are out of gas. He has spurts, but can’t match the energy game in and game out with the other guys on the team.

by KeenanEatsIt on Nov 21, 2009 9:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I spend two weeks practically gone from this place

and this shit comes up.

What the fuck, people?!

One day, David Backes and Albert Pujols will combine forces to become the most awesome piece of violent force known to man.

by Donut King on Nov 21, 2009 9:46 AM CST reply actions 2 recs

rec'd

Sometimes, I wonder why hockey came south of St. Louis, and then I realize, I'm south of St. Louis. Coincidence, I think not.

by Will in STL on Nov 21, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I never thought I’d see the phrase ‘ad hominem’ around here.

I fucking hate it.

SWYD

by gallagher on Nov 21, 2009 3:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, Juan.

by Washoo on Nov 21, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

While I don't agree with Scalia's judicial philosophy...

He is one of my grammar heroes. One of my favorite points that he makes is that there is never ever a reason to use Latin phrases if there is an alternative. Using the Latin just makes you seem conceited.

Sometimes, I wonder why hockey came south of St. Louis, and then I realize, I'm south of St. Louis. Coincidence, I think not.

by Will in STL on Nov 21, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

heros?

he is for waterboarding, not cos he thinks it aint cruel, nor cos he thinks it aint unusual. he is for waterboarding cos he thinks it ain’t “punishment”!

anyone who can consider the structure of the 8th ammendment and grammerize that theory got a few vowels loose :)

A strong anvil fears no hammer

by Childhood Trauma on Nov 23, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Word

.... formerly "Tim" of StLouisGameTime.com

by CrossCheckRaise on Nov 21, 2009 5:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

reply fail

that was a “word” to Will in STL regarding Scalia and Latin.

Damn, brevity lost to clarification….. ::sigh::

.... formerly "Tim" of StLouisGameTime.com

by CrossCheckRaise on Nov 21, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think Walt is all he was a decade ago (I remember seeing him score a hat trick against Detroit, nice) and I think most people would agree he is not what he once was and he is not the key to our future or even our present. But I think the problem with your post and why you are getting some of the pushback you are seeing is you don’t really offer a solution. So it just comes off as you picking a player and listing his faults.
In reality, he’s who we’ve got and you have to offer some alternative if you want to scratch him off the list. If you had offered Eller as an alternative in your first post I think you would have still gotten some or a lot of disagreement, but it might have been different in tone. Instead as you say yourself you only come to Eller as a default after ripping down Tkachuk. You don’t seem too convinced yourself, and I’m certainly not, that that is the right answer and would somehow make a significant difference in the team at this point.
I don’t think Walt is the end all be all, but I think he has something to offer for one more season.
I think Eller could use some seasoning in the AHL before coming up full time, and I don’t think any upside he might have over Walt in skill would also offset whatever leadership or je ne sais quoi (if not Latin, folks, how bout French?) that Walt offers.
I don’t see who else he is taking ice time from or anyone else who would be a better swap out for him. I don’t know that there’s anyone else we could get at that price that would be significantly better (again enough to also overcome Tkachuk’s “intangibles”) and we’re obviously not going to trade him.
So to me, and obviously to some others, this is coming off as complaining rather than constructive criticism or wanting the best for the team. Maybe you are coming at it from one of the latter perspectives but if so that is getting lost somewhere.

by BlueMonday on Nov 22, 2009 8:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs