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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Imagine Better Blues


Imagine for a second the prospect of not having glorified AHLers on our team.  Yes, that means no B.J. Crombeen, Brad Winchester, Cam Janssen, Ryan Reeves, or Tyson Strachan out there wandering around largely aimlessly.  Now imagine your roster is largely full of, well, this is the St. Louis Blues.. I guess we'll go with Andy MacDonald, T.J. Oshie, David Perron, and Erik Johnson as our stars.

Could we do that?  Yes.

Star-divide

The New Jersey Devils were recently defeated 3-1 by the Pittsburgh Penguins.  While that doesn't sound particularly noteworthy, the Devils did so using only 15 skaters.  Yes, that's right: they effectively took off the entire fourth line, shortening the bench, and still competently competed against one of the top NHL teams.  In fact, looking into the game stats, we can see it really wasn't that much of a disadvantage after all.

Let's look at a few key points:

  • While the Penguins had five players with over 20 minutes played, the Devils had seven.  That said, the Penguins had four players whose average shift was over a minute, while the Devils didn't have any.  The Devils had two players with over 30 shifts; the Penguins had one.
  • Shots were even for the game.
  • The Devils had more hits.
  • Both teams had the same number of take-aways.
  • The Devils had a better faceoff percentage.
  • And let's not forget the 3-1 score.  This was even better than the Devils' previous game, in which they had a full roster, and lost to the Washington Capitals 7-2.

I can hear you already.  "Boy, they must have been tired in the third period!"  Nope.  Far from it.  In fact, Devils head coach John MccLean called the period, "probably our best period." 

No one ran out of gas.  No one made horribly rookie-like mistakes.  It was just a normal game out there, but with one bench shorted by a line.  And they played admirably.  Admirably normal.

That said, while many argue that the watering-down of the NHL has come from over expansion (with which I tend to agree), perhaps a more practical option is to shorten the game rosters.  The fourth line, with many players -- particularly fighters -- getting a few minutes a game, is becoming even more irrelevant by the day.  Heck, who needs George Parros when you have Ryan Getzlaf... er... Corey Perry out there?

I'd much rather see the Blues, as well as other teams, field rosters full of NHL-capable talent instead of two or three lines of said talent while fielding a fourth line of scrubs, glorified AHLers, or cap-friendly bums.  It would make for more competitive, entertaining, and consistently good hockey.  The Devils proved it.

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What the Devils did was only because they had to, due to injuries. The NHL only allows teams to dress less than 18 players in emergencies only. Hockey people around the league viewed the Devils and Lou as an embarrassment and a disgrace for doing what they did. Besides the 4th line does not get much playing time anyway and Dagostini, who is on our 4th line has 3 goals. Reaves and Janssen are here to fight, we can’t afford to lose one of our better players for 5 minutes when it comes time for a fight. Crombeen might not be a great offensive player, but he is good on defense. Strachan is our 7th defenseman and has not even played yet, also when he has played he has been a steady 3rd line pairing dman. Lou finally got what he deserved and when the Devils have to activate their players from Injured Reserve, I will laugh hysterically when they have to trade Zajac

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 8:21 AM CDT reply actions  

Well shit

One game, a loss at that, and you’ve discovered the key to NHL success. Congrats.

Seriously, this would be insane to try over an 82 game season.

St. Louis Game Time Fact: Morning links are part of a well-balanced meal.

SBNSTL Writing about the Blues in more than one line is tough.

by averagejoe on Oct 15, 2010 8:39 AM CDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

I bet Andy Murray took some notes.

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

The whole premise is flawed.

Teams should overspend on a goal scorer so that they can run a shorter bench and then lose games 3-1 but that doesn’t matter because they played well.

It isn’t intramural roller hockey, a shorter bench isn’t better.

by gallagher on Oct 15, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Blanket Statement

Why would it be “insane”? I showed — granted, using a single game — that the impact on the team was much less than you’d think. If anything, playing time was more averaged out rather than grossly exaggerated when compared to most games. Don’t just give me a blanket statement; think about it and defend it. Use some stats. Why would a shortened roster be “insane” over an 82 game season (which, in my opinion, is too long in the first place).

by intangible on Oct 15, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

10 reasons

1. The NHL would take action because you are only allowed to dress less players in emergencies only.
2. 4th line players barely get any time as it is
3. 4th line players do in fact serve a purpose
4. Injuries, you need depth on the bench in case of injuries during warm-ups and the game.
5. The Devils have done this twice now, the other I think was a few years back, but not as extreme and guess what, they LOST both games, so this brilliant idea fails 100% of the time.
6. If you have no tough guys, what do you do when the other team goes after your star players?
7. They lost the game.
8. The coach saying that the team played good, means nothing.
9. They lost the game.
10. And lastly, they LOST THE GAME.

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bad reason

1. No shit. I’m saying if this was a league-wide RULE.
2. Yeah, they’re largely irrelevant and take up valuable cap space (at least $1.65m).
3. Which is becoming more and more irrelevant by the year for many teams.
4. When injuries occur, often a player is double shifted, not a fourth line player suddenly elevated to a higher line. Same would occur here.
5. Two normal losses. We’re not talking blow-outs here.
6. The other team would also have to sacrifice one of their better players (instead of a scrub) in order to fight one of your better players, which actually makes the players going off the ice for 5 minutes more equal in skill.
7. You already said this one.
8. More than anything you say.
9. You already said this one.
10. You already said this one.

So that’s actually six reasons, and bad ones at that. Try again.

by intangible on Oct 15, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Valid reasons

You dont get bonus points for losing close. If you get an injury on a reduced roster, the top line players are already doubling shifting to compensate for only 3 lines, so players could potentially be triple shifting. Last year the Blues were only a few games out of the playoffs, so you can’t afford to lose games because you are shorthanded. Every game counts, hence why I put the importance on them losing. The league will never make this a rule.

I don’t know how much I can stress that fact that they LOST. A loss is a loss. It doesn’t matter how you lose, just the fact that you lose.

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Still not valid.

Yes, it was a loss. But not a bad loss, they played it closely, and with truly little evidence that they were even shorthanded.

Let’s discount the fact that we had two uneven teams here. Flash forward to a game in which you have two teams of 15 skaters. Now what? They’re equal again. Only this time you have three lines of theoretically better player, making the hockey game more consistently entertaining. Instead of spending $1.65m on scrubs and glorified AHLers/fighters, you now have three better skilled lines of which will provide better play.

When it comes down to it, professional sports are nothing but a form of entertainment. Any sense of the integrity of a game has been lost with changes to lines and the trapezoid, the diminishing strike zone (MLB), and penalties for close hits on quarterbacks (NFL). To increase the entertainment of the game, I’m suggesting that rosters are filled with better skilled players instead of requiring a fourth line which, particularly in the era of a salary cap, is often relegated to scrubs and players who truly aren’t NHL caliber and shouldn’t be here.

by intangible on Oct 15, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Won't happen

Why would the NHLPA agree to have less jobs for players? You are arguing for something that isn’t going to happen. This is a what if argument that has no relevance to what the Devils did. Even if the NHL reduces the roster, the salary cap would probably be decreased as well, players would become more tired and fatigued over the 82-game season, which could potentially lead to an increase in injuries, which would mean less talented hockey.

If you look at it as 15v15, then you have no argument because it was 18v15. And again they lost. I don’t understand how you can defend a loss.

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Could happen

I’m not saying this is a likely thing to happen, but it doesn’t hurt to argue for or against it, nonetheless.

I still say that playing this way in an 82 game season (again, which I still think is too long) wouldn’t be any more fatigue. If anything, if third lines were strengthened, there might be less fatigue. I think the Devils-Penguins game showed us that the level of fatigue doesn’t increase due to a shortened roster, and instead more responsibility is just given to more players, and that didn’t result in diminished play.

by intangible on Oct 15, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

The game did show...

that level of fatigue was affected. The team with 15 players lost to the team with 18 players. You need a 4th line for energy, fights and hits. The Blues lines are structured as 2 scoring lines, 1 defensive shutdown line with some pop in Steen, and one energy line to get the crowd and the rest of the team back into the game on an off night. Each of the lines serve a purpose.

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rec'd like Tangie's argument...

"If we do not prepare for ourselves the role of the hammer, there will be nothing left but that of the anvil."

-- Otto von Bismarck, 1851

http://futurenotes.blogspot.com

by Tomorrows Blues on Oct 15, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

duuuuude

our third line is not a scoring line like many top teams. we cut out 4th lines and we fall further behind lol.

what the blues need to do is make the nhl make teams roll 4 d-pairs.

i think the blues 4th d-pair at this point in time will dominate the hawks 4th d-pair,

and our all important 9th d-man (fatigue injury starter) would still be strachen.

roll 4 d pairs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the thing the nhl occasionally tries to push is not the eliminiation of the 4th line, its the elimination of the 5th skater.

THAT is a realistic beast to slay, you want 60-minutes of overtime 4 on 4 hockey? if so just sit back and age gracefully cos it-a coming..

I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth ... while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 15, 2010 10:28 AM CDT reply actions  

I think the NHL would rather move to international-sized rinks than implement full-time 4-on-4.

But that’s a discussion for a rational thread, which this one is most decidedly not.

by BleedBlue42 on Oct 15, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

ok

i’ll not talk about it here, but i’m firmly convinced the nhl would rather switch to in-line skates than increase ice size :)

I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth ... while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 16, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

7-1/2 extra feet on each side of the rink = four rows of high-dollar seats removed from seating capacity.

That’ll happen when Gary Bettman admits on national TV that he’s been slobbin’ on Lou Lamoriello’s knob twice daily for the last 15 years.

"If we do not prepare for ourselves the role of the hammer, there will be nothing left but that of the anvil."

-- Otto von Bismarck, 1851

http://futurenotes.blogspot.com

by Tomorrows Blues on Oct 16, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

that is arguement one

its the WRONG arguement by the by, the team GETS MORE HIGH DOLLAR SEATS not less.

what the team DOES lose is the LAST three rows of the lower bowl. not the first, the first three rows all increase in size. just like you get more seats around the table once you stick the leaf in. yea there is less space in the dining room, but MORE seats of highest value.

but other than buttman lying about that (or at least misrepresenting it) they won’t take out the last three rows of the lower bowl even to increase the number of glass seats and provide more ice surface. so its moot.

I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth ... while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

by Childhood Trauma on Oct 16, 2010 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why is anyone arguing with this individual, or giving him the attention he craves?

"If we do not prepare for ourselves the role of the hammer, there will be nothing left but that of the anvil."

-- Otto von Bismarck, 1851

http://futurenotes.blogspot.com

by Tomorrows Blues on Oct 15, 2010 12:07 PM CDT reply actions  

well said

thank you gallagher and russkidan

by mulax6 on Oct 15, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

MOAR GREEN PLZ

St. Louis Game Time . . . I need another beer.
And I can also write things in 140 characters or fewer.

by Donut King on Oct 16, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm actually on intangable's side

I mean, having the first overall pick for the next few years would really help the team in the long run!

"What's the use of being Irish if you can't be thick?" Billy Conn

Sextus: You can break a man's skull, you can arrest him, you can throw him into a dungeon. But how do you control what's up here?
[taps his head]
How do you fight an idea?

by Crapchesterian on Oct 15, 2010 1:14 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Sarcasm duly noted.

St. Louis Game Time . . . I need another beer.
And I can also write things in 140 characters or fewer.

by Donut King on Oct 16, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

This will never happen because

the players union wil not allow it

BLEED BLUE FOREVER

by Mo Biggsly on Oct 15, 2010 4:56 PM CDT reply actions  

Fuck the idea of shortened rosters.

It’s even more stupid than the ridiculous notion that the NHL would be better with fewer teams.

Fuck any and all arguments complaining about the salary cap, whether in relation to roster size or aggregate talent.

And finally, fuck the assertion that BJ Crombeen is a “borderline NHLer”. Silent Jay is the best defensive forward on the roster; guess who’s #2?

by BleedBlue42 on Oct 15, 2010 6:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Playing 3 lines is something a rec league team.

Hell, it’s not even done with the old Torpedo System, a concept that – other than on the power play – fell by the wayside years ago (for reference: 4 forwards, 1 defenseman, all the damn time).

And i’ll second one of BleedBlue42’s points . . . how do you get off that BJ Crombeen is NOT an NHL-caliber player? The guy plays a solid defensive game, gets into opponents faces and scores enough to justify being out there regularly. And, if you haven’t noticed, he’s playing on the third line (they don’t call it “McSteenBeen” for nothin’). So I guess we’re supposed to play only two lines? What the flying fuck?!

St. Louis Game Time . . . I need another beer.
And I can also write things in 140 characters or fewer.

by Donut King on Oct 16, 2010 12:45 PM CDT reply actions  

That should be "something a rec league team DOES".

I aren’t too good at editorializing.

St. Louis Game Time . . . I need another beer.
And I can also write things in 140 characters or fewer.

by Donut King on Oct 16, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

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