In Defense of "Dinosaurs"
by Crapchesterian on Jul 3, 2010 1:59 PM CDT
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Defensive forwards have more than a place in this NHL, and really aren't "dinosaurs"
Each of the Cup winners since the "New NHL" came into play after the lockout really haven't had lines upon lines of forwards who can each score.
2006: Carolina Hurricanes
Led by two-time Selke winner Rod Brind'Amour and Doug Weight, who averaged just a hair above .2 goals a game over his entire career, and just 4 goals in his 23 games with Carolina. Sure, he was a fine playmaker, but I would say he made his mark in his own end, averaging at .6 assists a game.
Eric Cole was a strong scorer, but far from what I'd call an elite-level player.
Same with Ray Whitney.
The only truly offensive forward was Eric Staal, and he's responsible in his own end as well.
It'd be nice to have a bunch of Eric Staals playing both ends of the ice, but I think there's only one, and he's playing in Carolina.
2007: Anaheim Ducks
A piece brought up before as a mark to the older NHL.
They had Teemu Selanne as their gifted forward, as Getzlaf, Perry, and the rest haven't really come to their own as players. In fact, he was the only forward to score more than 30 goals (with 48 tallies)
So far I'm not seeing a team with a bunch of "speedy, buzzing, shooting forwards"
2008: (fuck)Detroit Red Wings
God damn. They had to win. Of course they did.
Well, they had Pavel Datsyuk, who while no one can deny his offensive flair, is a 3-time running defending Selke Winner
Also Dallas Drake, never a good offensive skater
Those scoring forwards? Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk, who is more recognized for play in his own end than offensive production.
With Babcock's system, they were able to win with good, strong defense, IN SPITE OF Chris Osbad.
2009: Pittsburgh Penguins
Yea yea, Cindy Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.
Bill Guerin is often counted in, but if you look at his production, he's going at a just under 1/3 of a goal per game, and nearly the same for assists.
Miroslav Satan turns it on and off, and in 08-09, he was off.
Petr Sykora was a good scorer, but again not an elite talent.
This was the most skilled forward set we've seen so far, and only really had 2, maybe 4 elite forwards at the time, not 3 lines of them
2010: Chicago Black Hawks
I might give Troy Brouwer a nod here, he's going to be dangerous in years to come, just not this year
Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews, of course. Patrick Sharp, Kris Versteeg
Marian Hossa was stong, but a lot of his goals came short-handed.
What it comes down to is that Chicago was really the only ream to pack it on with the "ideal" set of forwards.
I don't think that the Flyers were a really good offensive team, but they were able to really rack them up against Chicago. I think that if the Hawks played a team with better goaltending and defense, then there would be a different set of names on the Cup
So 80% of the cup winners had more focus on defense than offense.
The dinosaurs aren't dead just yet.
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If this is in response to my use of dinosaurs, I may need to clarify.
D.J. King, Cam Janssen, and anyone positively compared to Tyson Nash are the types of players who are losing their jobs in the NHL.
Defensive players like Jay McClement, B.J. Crombeen (who can score a little, play defense a lot and will fight) and two-way players who can score and also backcheck will always have a place in the NHL.
I hope this clarifies my point.
Alright, sounds a bit better
The prospect of a league with 30 Washington Capitals really scares me. Hell, one is too much.
I think as long as Janssen can disrupt teams in their own zones (effectively forecheck) He has a place on team, but really only one of them. I’ve said in the past that maybe dressing two wouldn’ be a bad idea, but that’s looking at Cam as a fighter, not a forechecker.
If Crombeen can get a little more disciplined, he could be a good player. Too many stupid penalties too often.
"Everyone knows everybody loves fights. They better start listening to the people who are at the game and pay the money than the twits upstairs who get in for free."
by Crapchesterian on Jul 3, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
What is so bad about the Capitals? Scared the game might turn offensive?
Just for reference, in terms of Goals Against Average
6 CHI 2.48
11 STL 2.66
15 PHI 2.71
16 WSH 2.77
20 PIT 2.87
The teams I chose were the last two Cup Champions, the East Champion of this year, and the Blues and Caps.
The Capitals are not a great defensive team, 16/30 means they’re moderately mediocre. And if you watched the playoffs, you would see that they lost because the offense wasn’t working thanks to Halak, a cold power play (1/36 is terrible), and a coach not making enough adjustments.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
I don't think the goals against average is an accurate assesment
look at the division the caps play in. Florida, Atlanta, Tampa, and Carolina?
"Everyone knows everybody loves fights. They better start listening to the people who are at the game and pay the money than the twits upstairs who get in for free."
by Crapchesterian on Jul 4, 2010 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Over at Japers Rink, someone already made a fanshot talking about the Capitals not getting fat off divisional opponents. It deals with points, not GA/A but the point remains the same. I simply do not have enough time to go through and do that myself for GA/A.
http://www.japersrink.com/2010/2/1/1287946/whos-feasting-on-who
If we were to trade places with NJ, mighty leader of the great ATL division, we’d have the exact same number of points than if we stayed in the weak SE.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
It was either behind the net or from the rink did the numbers and everyone in the southeast’s numbers were inflated. If you took someone from that division and moved them outside they would only score at about 80% what they currently do.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
If that’s true then the Capitals goals against average should be lower. Goals for should be higher, but goals against should be lower. In that case, the Capitals are a slightly better defensive team than the stats show.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
I realized I phrased this poorly after I submitted it.
If the southeast numbers are inflated, the the Capitals Goals for would be higher than normal, but the capitals goals against would be higher than normal too. So the Real Number should be a lower Goals For, but also a Lower Goals against.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
Nah
It means everyone in that divisions goals were inflated because the defense was so bad. If you took those players to a division that knew how to play defense they wouldn’t score nearly as much.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Found it
http://www.fromtherink.com/2010/6/8/1507777/the-southeast-effect-and-free
“One of the more interesting studies of the NHL and player performance done in the last year was by Jonathan Willis at Hockey Or Die! on The Score. He found that there was a significant drop-off in player performance when players in the Southeast Division played opponents from outside of their own division. Specifically, he found that forward production drops by 16.3% when facing opponents from around the league and that overall, players drop by 14%. "
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
That is interesting, but brings up a whole different argument. It doesn’t seem to make a difference to Goals Against, which is what the complaint was about. The defense.
Maybe I’m just dense, but how would that effect the defensive Goals Against Average for the Capitals?
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
If I understand correctly
and I may be wrong as well. If another team from outside that division came in and played a SE team, they would be statistically likely to put up 15% more goals just because of how poor the defensive play is there.
For the caps, im not sure the exact math to correctly show the defense for them. Maybe subtract the games played inside that division and look at those numbers. I can’t find a sight that breaks down teams vers divisions as far as goals go.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Washing:
They scored 100 goals against their division.
They gave up 65.
24 GP.
2.7 GA/G
4.16GF/G
Outside the division.
They scored 213.
Gave up 162.
58GP
2.8GA/G
3.67GF/G
I did all these numbers by hand so there is a good possibility i fucked counting something somewhere. If the numbers are right they score an extra half a goal a game against their division and are .1 better defensively.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Nice job doing the leg work.
Those numbers do seem realistic. Scoring slightly less (though still more than every other team in the league) but having roughly the same defense.
The Capitals do slightly benefit from playing in the southeast for Goals For, But it barely changes for Goals Against. Even if you erased the game played in the South East, the GA/G would be 2.8, very close to the 2.77GA/G the NHL gives.
My point still stands even with a 2.8 GA/G. The Capitals D isn’t that bad. On average, it’s better than Pittsburgh, which doesn’t have the “No D” meme. In terms of 5-5 GA/G the Capitals are 2nd only to the Devils. The Caps just can’t PK to save their life….
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/team_data3.php?sort=17
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
The problem is that while I enjoy a good hockey fight as much as anyone, the top teams do not employ a designated puncher.
Only exception over the last yer Cup winners is Anaheim.
The spots taken up by yesteryear’s Twist and Chase are being given to guys who are more multi-faceted. The top teams in the league are almost always at the bottom of the list of team fights.
Likewise, you can’t just run around, hit everyone you see for 30 seconds and then get off the ice. I liked Tyson Nash as much as anyone, but the roster spot that he basically created league-wide just isn’t there any more. Not on the good teams anyway. The pest is dead, just as the heavyweight is on his way to being dead.
FML
The pest is dead, just as the heavyweight is on his way to being dead.
Sniff, who will I root for then?
Just a chew toy for the hockey gods
Guys like Oshie and Sobotka...
who will hit anything that moves and provide offensive skill. The “heavyweights” of the future will be more in the Cam Neely mode; big guys who can play and who resemble “John Wayne Toilet Paper… Rough and Tough and don’t take no shit from nobody!”
No, I can’t explain the Rangers’ signing of Derek Boogaard… except to say it’s Glen Freakin’ Sather!
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 5, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I would love to see a ton of giys
playing like Cam Neely.
Let's go Blues!!!
by Milo. on Jul 5, 2010 9:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Hell yes, Oshie is the future. Teams always need pests and fighter, just not at the expense of real hockey players. So when you get both, they’re gold. Hell even Avery has some hockey talent, which is why he’s still around (that and Sather).
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
What about Eager and Burish
for Chicago? That’s all they do – and they got to do it in the finals…(talking about the last paragraph you wrote)
I'd call Eager a pest more than anything
Seeing the amount of times he’s offered fights and refuses them.
Not a very “heavyweight” move
But A good forecheck is just as important to an offense as a good pass; sure, you can operate and score without one, but it’s always easier to finish if set up.
The only thing is, there’s no stat I’ve seen for number of times disrupting a play that ends in a teammate getting points (save for +/-, but that’s not really all that specific)
"Everyone knows everybody loves fights. They better start listening to the people who are at the game and pay the money than the twits upstairs who get in for free."
by Crapchesterian on Jul 5, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
or pest
2000- 42 players had 120 or more penalty minutes
last season it was down to 29
so not only a designated puncher, but also not a dedicated “bruiser” (ala the non fighting butcher type et al)
A strong anvil fears no hammer
by Childhood Trauma on Jul 5, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
not sure any type of player is a dinosaur
dinos died and didnt come back except for the Coelacanth. tyson nash, tony twist, todd ewen, bryan marchment, the hatcher bros. etc they could all be back in the game with a coaching philosphy change in the nhl that produces a cup team. adaptation in the nhl tends towards the cyclic as the head coaches do not remember the past so they repeat it.
i’d love to think certian style are gone for good, but i don’t..
one of the problems with the current nhl and defensive forwards, is that if the cap “works” there will be more teams running 3 “scoring lines” not thaqt the canes or the trahers or the avs’s 3rd scoring line will be as good as oooh, the hawks, but consider this..
a) draft skill forwards over defensive forwards pretty much every year, then you gotta keep who you draft therefore more “skill” youth
b) less team dynasty building so the team that had 3 real scoring lines loses 2 or 3 of those players every year in free agency to teams with 2 or less lines
if the nhl continues these trends your going to have 1 line that has both your top d forwards and your energy muckers bums. and the blues are not in that position yet, but assume they were for a second what 3 non scoring forwards do you really want, and dont the blues immediately dump about 5 forwards that no one picks up?
A strong anvil fears no hammer
by Childhood Trauma on Jul 4, 2010 8:26 AM CDT reply actions
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